Lutnick downplayed contact with Epstein in House Oversight interview, transcript shows

By Annie Grayer, Piper Hudspeth Blackburn, Aleena Fayaz, CNN

(CNN) — Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick downplayed three in-person encounters he said he had with Jeffrey Epstein over the years, telling the House Oversight Committee in a closed-door interview last week that his interactions with the convicted late sex offender were “virtually nonexistent,” according to a transcript released Thursday.

The comments came during a voluntary interview Lutnick gave to congressional investigators last week following revelations that his contact with Epstein extended years beyond what he initially claimed in public.

In his lifetime, Lutnick testified that he interacted with Epstein in 2005, 2011 and, perhaps most controversially, at a 2012 lunch on Epstein’s island. Those later contacts, which were revealed in files released by the Justice Department, undercut his prior assertion that he had cut ties with Epstein in 2005, even though Lutnick tried to argue his previous statement still holds. Epstein had pleaded guilty to sex crimes in 2008.

“To the best of my recollection, those were the only three occasions in which I interacted with Epstein in person. Each and every one was meaningless and inconsequential. I had no personal or professional relationship with this individual, despite the proximity of our addresses. Further, at no time during these limited interactions did I witness any conduct, let alone the type of illegal conduct of which we have since become aware,” Lutnick testified.

Even though Lutnick appeared voluntarily, he was reminded at the beginning of the interview that it is a crime to lie to Congress. The release of Lutnick’s transcript by the Republican-led Oversight Committee is part of the panel’s bipartisan investigation into Epstein, his orbit and how the Justice Department handled the allegations of sexual abuse against him.

The transcript offered one of Lutnick’s most robust accounts to date of how he met and dealt with Epstein over the years, but it is unlikely to satisfy critics who have accused him of covering up ties to the convicted sex offender. After his testimony last week, Democrats on the committee said he still had more to explain, and two suggested he should resign if he couldn’t provide a more thorough explanation of his and Epstein’s interactions.

A Commerce spokesperson said the secretary answered “nearly 400 questions” during his testimony, where “he explained repeatedly that three encounters do not constitute a relationship.”

“The committee adjourned without identifying any evidence to the contrary,” the spokesperson said in a statement.

Lutnick testified that in 2005, he and his wife were invited over to Epstein’s house for coffee shortly after they moved into a neighboring townhouse in New York. During that meeting, Lutnick said Epstein made a “crude” remark that prompted him and his wife to leave, Lutnick said.

“I asked him why he had a massage table in the middle of his house,” Lutnick said, pointing out that it was the best of his recollection from a conversation that occurred 21 years ago. “And I said, ‘How often do you have a massage?’ And he said – my best recollection is, he said, ‘Every day and the right kind of massage.’ And he said it to me, and my wife is standing next to me, and we looked at each other, and we left.”

Lutnick told committee investigators that he interpreted Epstein’s comment to mean that his massages “would become in some form sexual in nature,” and he described Epstein’s comment as “inappropriate,” “gross” and “off-putting.”

Upon leaving Epstein’s townhouse after the 10- to 15-minute encounter, Lutnick said that he and his wife spoke about how he would never create a relationship with Epstein.

“Immediately following that brief initial meeting, as we walked back to our home, my wife and I discussed the encounter and that, given his clear lack of boundaries, I would never establish a personal or professional relationship with him. And that is exactly what I did,” Lutnick testified.

Lutnick had similarly told the New York Post in a podcast interview in October 2025 that he and his wife decided to cut off contact with Epstein after that meeting in 2005. But the Epstein files released by the Justice Department revealed that Lutnick and Epstein had at least two more interactions after that, including a trip Lutnick took with his family to Epstein’s island. Lutnick testified he wasn’t sure “when or whether” he knew about Epstein’s arrest in 2006.

The files also contained email correspondence and calendar invites for phone calls, and evidence that the two at one point were invested in the same business venture.

Lutnick testified, though, he did not know hat he and Epstein were both invested in the same company until the Epstein files were released, even though he emailed with Epstein in 2018 about the prospects of that company. Lutnick said he didn’t know why Epstein would have been emailing him about the company, but noted its existence was public knowledge because the company was trying to “get attention.”

“Producing revenue finally. This is their year. Next 12 months they need to become economically self-sufficient,” Lutnick confirmed he wrote to Epstein.

In late 2012, Lutnick testified that Epstein’s staff “inexplicably” contacted his office about his family’s planned holiday travels to the Caribbean, calling the reach out “unsettling.”

“I still have no idea how his staff discovered my family’s vacation plans or why they pursued arranging a visit with me,” Lutnick said.

But Lutnick nonetheless ended up bringing his wife and children, as well as another family and nannies, to have lunch with Epstein on his island. Lutnick called the encounter “brief, meaningless, and inconsequential.” Asked about a nanny that he employed sending her resume to Epstein, he said, “I have no knowledge about that at all.”

Lutnick testified that he never went inside any building, never saw any young women or girls on the island, and did not know a photograph of him on a cliff of the island with Epstein existed until the Department of Justice released the Epstein files.

Lutnick also detailed to committee investigators a 2011 encounter where he said he briefly met with Epstein in his hallway to discuss scaffolding and construction impacting their neighboring properties.

“My best recollection is: I rang the bell, sat in his foyer with my dog, waited for him to come down, heard what he had to say, and left. As far as I recall, it was about scaffolding. It was meaningless and inconsequential,” Lutnick testified, adding that his wife waited outside with their other dog.

Lutnick said he met Epstein’s co-conspirator Ghislaine Maxwell at a Rockefeller Institute fundraiser in New York City, describing his conversation with her as “meaningless and inconsequential.”

Lutnick is the highest-ranking Trump administration official prominently named in the Epstein files — outside of the president himself — and his appearance behind closed doors marked an extremely rare occurrence of a sitting Cabinet official testifying in a congressional probe. It underscores that the Epstein scandal still hangs over President Donald Trump and his administration, despite the president’s repeated efforts to move on from it.

But the White House has so far expressed confidence in Lutnick, despite calls for his resignation. When asked previously whether the commerce secretary’s job is safe, a White House official told CNN, “Howard’s great” and there are “no planned changes at all” to his role within the administration.

But the headache for the Trump administration won’t end with Lutnick’s appearance. The Republican-led panel is expected to question former Attorney General Pam Bondi later this month about her role in overseeing the release of the Epstein case files.

This story has been updated with additional details.

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